1/16 1x19 and slimlocks

[17kiss]

Dont know if this has been covered before or not. i just picked up 10 dozen with amberg breakaways. To say i am impressed is an understatement.Holds a great loop without worry about wind firing and fires at touch like greased lightning.Lock up was very impressive also , and set up was very low profile. Now that I ma done rambling.
Any of you fellows with experience running this set up , Tell me can I expect quick kills and do they kill fast with or without entanglement? I am adding 7 foot extensions to these and they are mainly for cats but am sure many,many coyotes will find their way into them . Which leads to next question. Will they consistently drop coyotes fast enough to negligate the chewing factor? thanks for any and all input

[Snareman]

Amberg breakaways have a stop that is crimped with a little hand tool and the compression comes from hand strength. You will get extreme variances with such a BAD due to the human hand's inconsistencies in compression. A compression BAD, such that I use on the snares I manufacture, are each tested for a particular lock. You CAN NOT get a compression designed stop to perform identically using it from lock to lock. Each time the method is used, it has to be tested for a particular lock and how it is set up. When adding the extra length of cable, you add a slight variation to the mix and making the b-away more prone to being popped off as target has more room, but the spring should help combat some of what it is prone to.

"Lock up was very impressive also"

Sounds like you took it and cinched it on your hand for a test. The real test, actual field use on coyotes, will show completely different results, which has been very very poor.

"Tell me can I expect quick kills and do they kill fast with or without entanglement?"

Whoever you bought those snares from I would say does not actually use those snares in the field... or does not know how to diagnose the results they are seeing. They took a rather seemingly very good setup and completely ruined it by adding the Slimlock.

"Will they consistently drop coyotes fast enough to negligate the chewing factor?"

Absolutely they will. Only if the snare is set right next to a drop off where the animal slips off edge and gets hung. Other than that, absolutely NOT. The Slim lock is a very very poor lock to be using on a coyote kill device.

These observations and results come from direct in the field observations and feedback from the best snareman I know of. I've found the lock to be very prone to blow outs and one of the poorest killing locks I know of. A Thompson-style lock, of which there are several designs out, will make a better kill lock than the Slim lock. Why? they have the same surface area that touches fur when closed shut... meaning they will both sink into the pelt the same depth cutting off venous flow. The Thompson style locks also have a bend which will keep the locking hole more away from the point of where the locking hole meets the cable in relation to where it meets the fur... meaning not as much hair will get into the locking hole which makes the rig prone to slippage.

At first glances, seemingly the Slim lock appeared to be the ultimate lock: slid "some what" easily, small side profile making it less conspicuous, inexpensively priced and "appeared" to lock down tight while testing on the ARM.

The problem with the Slim lock is the design of the way it locks down and what it depends on to hold a good cinch. Like some other locks, it does not rely on friction points in the locking hole in relation to the bend of the lock. The Slim's vulnerability is the locking mechanism relies on the nipple that is punched out. If you take a look you will see a sharp edge on the tang that is protruding. It's this sharp edge that helps hold the cinch. In the real world test, an animal gets caught and cinches the lock down tight, but through it's struggles, it will break the cinch, then the cable rubs over this sharp edge, friction, and then wears part of that edge down. Then through repeated efforts in struggling, the cinch is broke again, this time easier because the edge is smoother... less sharp. In short period of time, a few strokes of the cable back and forth has now worn down this sharp edge and the lock is now considered blown. From a brief observation you will see that the sharp edge no longer exists and is now worn down smooth. More evidence of a failed lock is the amount of struggle and chew damage at the set along with evidence the animal was alive longer than should have along with more cases of edema, ie, waterheads.

Usually I have to go through some extensive time periods and in the field observations to take on assessments I'm seeing, but through other people's experiences, my brief use of them and studying locks that have been blown, it didn't take me lock to discover the lock is not what I had hoped it to be.

As for bobcats, you would think about any lock and snare combination would put them down... being they're the easiest animal to kill in a snare, but even the Slim couldn't do this. Too many bobcats were alive when the user came to check them.

The Slim will work for coon in non-dispatch and beaver, but for canine & cat snaring in instances of where quick dispatch is the desired outcome... no. For an example of one kind of coyote kill snare setup I use, click Here.

If either the Amberg lock was used, or better yet, the Camloc, the setup you described then would have been deadlier on a much higher percentage basis.

Snareman

[Rod17]

Snareman, great answer to this question.

Personally, this is the kind of detailed answer and explanation I think we all want to hear. Its fine to have some really experienced guys tell us something won't work; for the most part I accept their years of experience and their opinion. However, its much more meaningful to read such a thorough explanation of the matter at hand. Provides alot more cribility to the issue.

Also, glad you touched on the topic of venous outflow and the mechanism of death with snares. This could be a entire new post but still surprising how many people think snares kill by asphyxiation. I'm director of a research lab that studies vascular mechanics and hemodynamics and would love to have some discussions on exactly how snares kill.

Rod17

[17kiss]

Caught me a little off guard there , but thanks for the reply. Was a very well known snareman who sold me these with a quote of 90% of what he caught was dead in these.Will leave it at that as far as where i got them. Have you personal knowledge of this setup on cats? I am just curious because now i am in quite the pickle. I have other snares , but did indeed like the low profile and quickness aspect of these snares. Entanglement beneficial maybe with setup?

[Snareman]

90% kill rate? I would need to see it with my own eyes to believe it. Why? Because an endorsement of any kind for those locks for coyote dispatch has already been proven futile and are in itself, a huge statement to me about such remarks because what I have said has not come from theory, but from solid experience. I also contend there is a difference between a "well known" snareman and a "good" snareman. While I am neither, I know a little about all sorts of snaring from rodents to coyote. It's not important who made those remarks, as the endorsement of using those locks on snares meant for coyote dispatch are enough for me to make my own conclusions. Some of the good ones I know wouldn't know the difference between a mouse and a hard drive, let alone know how to work a simple eMail. For cats I would not rely on the compression spring and lock using the Slim, but good solid entanglement.

Any snare lock put on 1x19 will give you the "impression" the lock and snare slides nice, but it's the hard smooth surface of the 1x19 having low friction.... compared to the rougher exterior of the 7x7 making it slide smoother.

Another thing, yes, "low profile" is in, but I don't know of any good coyote snareman who doesn't at least take some measures to blend their snares in using brush, etc. So technically if a lock is "low profile" or not, really isn't much as an issue as some are led to believe because it will be brushed in anyway, hiding the lock, inline swivel, wammie, compression spring and support wire.

When you go to use those snares, here's what I recommend:

Keep accurate records.
Know kill % & distinguish between entanglement & chokespring fatalities.
When you take off lock, notice if it's tight or loose.
Examine catch area & make notes of catch area.
Poor lock performance = edema, live 'yotes & large disturbance at set.
When skinning, look at edema evidence.
Check cable for chewing. Quick dispatches = little chewing.
Examine each used lock for evidence of wear.

When you start keeping your own records and accumulate numbers to back them up... and maybe even combine your results with others, you'll soon gather enough results to deem what you feel is fact.

While some may think a dead canine on the end of the snare is a good thing, I'm still examining the catch circle and equipment to see how quickly he was dispatched. Even coyotes dispatched can show clues he was alive too long, then you can take measures to make adjustments in either your sets or equipment to get better results. While I'm no doctor or autopsy expert, I am a CSI pro... Catch Scene Investigator.

Hope you can find value in some of my rambling. Sorry.

Good luck,

Snareman

[MChewk]

Robert, you are the CSI of snaring...excellent responses.

[17kiss]

From now on just call him Grissom ;D Thanks for the replies again. I do value your opinion or would not have asked the question here.

[buckfreak]

If you call your posts rambling well ramble on......... Alot of good info.

[Seldom]

The first year I snared coyote here in MI I used two different locks. Half of my snares were made up with Slims and the other half with Gregerson L-4’s all were built on 1x19, 5/64” cable and hung specifically for lethal entanglement.

I caught coyotes with both setups but as Snaremen has stated, the Slims left way too many alive, or alive too long compared to the other setup. I’m not kidding you when I say that I quickly learned to hate “water-head”!!! I also saw where too many cable strands had been broken from chewing on the Slim setups compared to the other.

Snaremen did a great job listing specific observations that should be noted when making a commonsensical judgment of how efficient a lock performs on it’s own merits or as compared to the performance of another lock. It’s extremely enlightening to find (several times) a mated pair (supposedly) of coyotes caught in snares 30’ apart, in seemingly identical setups except with different locks! During my career in welding/engineering one of my functions was that of a “Trained Observer” but it certainly doesn’t take those kinds of skills to be able to compare the results you’ll see.

There’s one other observation I made with the Slims and it has to do with Snareman’s description of its locking principle/mechanism. He’s very correct in the description but I’d like to add an additional comment. Most often we look at locks as though they only function by having pressure applied perpendicular to the locking mechanism, with the Slim you have to look beyond that. Look to see how the lock works or doesn’t work when force/strain is applied off-center of the tang and the cable rides in the V made during the punch press operation. It appears that it only takes a little lateral movement by the animal during it’s struggle and you’ve lost the majority of the Slim’s lock-down capability whether the tang’s edge is worn (it will be) or not. About half the time that I released the lock on coyotes, I observed this offset cable/tang configuration and the release was easier.

I no longer use the Slim-locked snares but I’m wondering if I can’t dust’em off, remove the deer stops and put them to use on "under-ice" beaver? I wouldn't think the small amount of time (comparitively speaking) the beaver is being held (drowning) would warrant concern for pelt damage? In Mi we can only use snares under-ice for beaver and otter and hopefully the DNR won’t change the Regs for snaring those species, as they seem inclined to do with the canines. If hounds swam under the ice in MI I don’t know what kind of trapping/snaring Regs we’d wind up with!

[Rod17]

Seldom, thanks for the additional info you posted.

Now that you don't use slimlocks, what type of lock are you using and what have your results been?

Thanks

Rod17

[Seldom]

I continued using the Gregerson L-4’s through last year. I don’t know if they’re the best locks but I have dead coyote and that’s what the property owners and I want. I actually have property owners who allow me the privilege to snare coyote where they wouldn’t allow the use of a foothold trap. They don’t want to see the “bounce” so using snares with entanglement has actually helped me gain properties to hang on.

We have serious Reg. trouble on the horizon here in MI, which could mean the end of my canine snaring. The vote on the new Regs is coming up in less then two weeks and I’ll know then if I’m going to continue chasing coyotes or moving on to beaver. That’s why the question of using the Slims on beaver under the ice. Open water snaring of beaver and otter is against the law here.

In my opinion, folks whose states are just now allowing the use of CR’s and are thinking that by getting their foot in the door will gain them more ground in the future are forgetting something. The rest of society we touch with our activity!! If it were just the trappers that were involved in making Regs and there were no outside influences to contend with, that thinking might be true but as we’re finding out here, that’s not the real world not by a long, long shot!!!

In my opinion that was the thinking here back in the early 70’s with restrictions using 220’s on public property but the Regs have never changed. In fact, I think we’re on the verge of losing their use on land even though it’s on private property! Just get our foot in the door and in a couple of years, we’ll be using the 220’s on the ground. That was the thinking but nope, didn’t happen and won’t! I think it was a lesson again unlearned with our snaring Regs. If we can start using them on private property, in a couple of years we’ll be able to use them on public lands. Nope, not going to happen. We’ve lost ground very year since snaring was allowed. Sorry to say but in my humble advise and experience to any state that is going to start using cable, I’d strongly suggest looking at what’s happening here and go for the gold ring right up front and then educate yourselves on how to hold what you’ve got. Sorry to say that this is in direct contradiction to many folk’s thought processes today, as it was to many here in MI but proof is in the pudding and what’s happening here is undeniable.

I’m partly sorry for straying off the subject.

[martentrapper]

I have been using slim locks for the last 5 years. I mostly use them on 1/16th, 1x19, but have also used them on 3/64th, 1x19. I use them for lynx and redfox. I would estimate I've taken about 10 lynx of various sizes with them and around 30 fox, over the 5 years.
On lynx, I have never had one that was not dead, when caught around the neck, when I got there. However, I cannot remember any time that I snared a lynx around the neck, that it wasn't dead. I've even had them die in 3/32nd, 1x19 thompsen snares. I'm pretty satisfied with their performance on lynx, but they do tend to sink into the skin of the animal. Since cats die easily in a snare, I have not found this to be that bad of a problem. I have reused the locks after catches, but have not studied whether they are worn after a catch. I would bet that 7x7 will wear them more than 1x19. I would continue using them, but prefer a McKenzie lock for cats, on 1x19 cable. I trap in windy country and the McKenzie is more stable on the cable than other locks.

On fox, I have caught around 60 fox over the last 2 years in snares. 99% of these have been in either slim locks or BMI mini's. Success in killing fox seems more related to entaglement than on type of lock. I've killed fox in both locks, and had fox alive in both locks (24 hr check, sometimes less). Fox personality, in my experience, plays a part in killing them in snares. Fox, as with most canines, chew. Some fox will begin chewing very shortly after being caught. If they concentrate their chewing on the brush around them, they quickly will have nothing left to tangle on. Some fox will concentrate their time in the snare chewing on that snare, and not tangle in the brush around them. Most of my fox snaring is in willows, with few of them being larger than 1.5 in. in diameter. Fox that die in slimlocks do have the lock imbedded firmly into the fur. I have not found this to cause noticeable damage to the fur, but have had to partially thaw animals occaisionally, to get the lock off. While I am still somewhat new at serious snaring, I am able to consistently catch both lynx and fox. To date, I have not found a lock that will kill fox 100% of the time.

I'm sure some of you are going to chime in now and tell me what a great killing lock the camlock is. DON'T BOTHER! Doesn't matter how good it kills, in my experience, it doesn't CATCH. Despite my location in freezing cold Alaska, we regularly get rain during the trapping season. This is followed by a return to freezing temps. My experience with cams has been trying to thaw/dry frozen camlocs after one of these rains. Twice in the last 5 years I have had a number of camloc equipped snares out for lynx, only to find every one of them frozen in place, the cam unable to slide on the lock. The surface area between the hood and the lever of the cam holds too much water after rain and freezes the lever in place and the hood freezes to the cable. I will no longer use them. I do have a few ambergs i bought t last years NTA conv. But most of them will be on wolverine snares on larger cable.

Kill springs: I suspect that a kill spring could add killing power to any lock it could succesfully be used with. I have very little experience with kill springs, but that little bit of experience also suggests the personality of the animal plays a part in their success.

7x7 cable. This cable is made up of 49 very small strands of wire. Twisting in the direction opposite the cable wrap will expose all 49 of those wires to the crushing power of an animals jaws. I've seen 7x7, 3/32nd almost chewed/broken thru by fox. I can't imagine using it on an animal with the jaw strength of a coyote. Lotsa guys apparently do tho.

I read an article in a trapping mag about using slimlocks on underice beaver. The authors were very successful with them on 1/16th, 1x19 snares.

There's my take on slimlocks and killing animals in snares. My new direction for snaring this year will be live snaring fox. Just hope I can accomplish what I want.
mt

[SteveCraig]

mt,
A couple of drops of mineral oil on the cam will completely eleminate your problem. For heavy ice, just wipe the entire cable with mineral oil or even vaseline. I have used silicone spray as well with good results, but it does have an odor and must set awhile first.
FWIW
Steve