Rod17
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Posts: 28
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Post by Rod17 on Jun 28, 2005 21:48:08 GMT -5
Heres a question I have had for awhile but have been really hesitant to ask. Now, please bear in mind that I am a new to snaring and much of what I know have learned on this forum.
My question is about the mechanics of choke springs. Most of the snares I have purchased have choke springs, or compression springs, whatever you like to call them. Everything I have read suggests that springs increase the kill rate and I have no reason to doubt the opinion of experienced snaremen. I recently posted a thread asking about kill rates for coyotes with camlocks and camlocks + choke springs in non-entanglement set-ups. I had hoped to get enough info to help me lead up to this question.
I want to know what your thoughts are about how compressions springs actually work. On the surface this may sound awfully simple but bear with me: when an animal, specifically a coyote, pulls a snare loop shut, the lever arm of the cam acts perpendicular to the loop cable creating the locking mechanism. The harder the coyote pulls, the smaller the loop gets and the more force the short end of the snare exerts on the lever arm, locking the cam against the wire. It seems that the loop has to be pulled really small to compress the spring but, with the amount of force required to pull a small loop, the same amount of force is acting on the lever arm, pressing the cam into the cable and, thus, preventing any slip of the cable. This inability of the cable to slip, makes me wonder what springs actually do. From what I can see, the compression spring cannot exert any additional force on the loop itself becasue the snare loop is locked by the camming action of the camlock.
Granted, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. If the spring is compressed, it must be exerting force on the snare loop. It's just that the critter had to pull the loop closed enough to create that spring tension... but once the cam locks against the cable, the cable can't really slip and therefore can't exert any additional force because the cable can't move.
So, do you think springs actually do anything?
(Hope no one is PO'd by this...it is an honest question and I do want to believe they work)
Thanks
Rod
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ADC
Seasoned Veteran
Posts: 335
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Post by ADC on Jun 28, 2005 22:13:40 GMT -5
I think I understand your question. Your saying if they pull hard enough on the cable to compress the spring, as long as the lock doesn't slip, they have already pulled hard enough to ensure they will expire quickly weather the spring puts anymore pressure on the loop or not . Correct? You have a very valid question I believe. It will be interesting to see what studies or experiance has shown.
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Rod17
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Posts: 28
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Post by Rod17 on Jun 28, 2005 22:18:49 GMT -5
ADC, you nailed the question in 4 lines...took me 27 lines!
I really look forward to hearing everyones thoughts. Observations and experience from the trapline will surely beat my armchair observations!
Rod
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Post by Snareman on Jun 29, 2005 1:09:09 GMT -5
Envision a little troll(and I have in mind what he would look like) standing on the stop end of the cable behind the compression spring pulling on the cable stop to exert more force... like say about 37lbs of pressure on a 75lb spring.
This is what a compression spring is doing.
Snareman
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ADC
Seasoned Veteran
Posts: 335
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Post by ADC on Jun 29, 2005 10:11:37 GMT -5
I to know what the little troll would look like. But like the little troll we all know, are they adding anything of value? If the coyote already pulled so hard on the cable as to compress a 75lb. spring didn't he already pull hard enough to kill himself without the added pull from the troll? Don't get me wrong, I too want to believe they are an added benifit to a coyote snare. Just playing the devils advocate here like Rod17.
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Post by MChewk on Jun 29, 2005 14:16:05 GMT -5
Great points guys....my thoughts using the info already pointed out...seems to me a choke spring would have MORE (killing) benefits in a RELAXING lock scenario when compared to that of a cam for instance. I know that .....why would a guy put a choke spring on a relaxing washer lock? ...just my input.
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Post by Snareman on Jun 29, 2005 15:05:51 GMT -5
Ok, imagine someone coming from behind you and choking you with a piece of cable. You try and pull away as hard as you can. This is the max force you can provide. But now imagine the person who has the cable has an end in each hand and slightly pulls more force from one side. This is what a kill spring is doing.
The animal pulls as much as he can, but then stops pulling. The lock is suppose to stop the cable from slipping back. However, you then have the spring compressed... which is pulling on one side of the loop slack. Compression springs while compressed actually pull on the cable... which also helps the lock stay tight and prevent slippage.
Snareman
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ADC
Seasoned Veteran
Posts: 335
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Post by ADC on Jun 29, 2005 17:28:43 GMT -5
If the coyote already pulled so hard on the cable as to compress a 75lb. spring didn't he already pull hard enough to kill himself without the added pull from the troll?
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Rod17
New Member
Posts: 28
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Post by Rod17 on Jun 29, 2005 19:38:59 GMT -5
In prinicple, we can all understand that when the loop is pulled really tight, like a coyote pulling on it, the loop closes and the compression spring is compressed. For every action there is an equal an opposite reaction, so the spring is resisting the compression by pushing against the free end of the loop cable.
There is no doubt that the spring must be exerting some amount of force onto the loop and, therefore, adds pressure onto the critters neck. My original statement "that becasue the camlock prevents the cable from slipping, the spring can't add any additional force" is, quite simply wrong.
So I guess that the real issue boils down to the how much additional force does the spring add and does it matter? If a 35 lb coyote can pull, or create, for example, 200 ft-lbs of force, does the 30 lb choke spring add to his demise? Clearly, i dont have any idea, which is why I initially asked about kill rates with cam locks vs. camlocks + choke springs. Well, no sense "beating a dead coyote".
But heres another question to ponder. How much force can a snared coyote generate when pulling with his back muscles and hind legs against a snare?
Thanks for indulging me on this topic.
Rod17
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Post by MChewk on Jun 29, 2005 21:43:58 GMT -5
Would length of snare make a difference? I know from playing tug o' war with dogs and a towel they can generate alot of force...say enough to move a 200lb man and thats with a short towel.
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Post by conibear on Jun 29, 2005 22:04:05 GMT -5
Would the size of the cable help the choke spring compress down, to help keep the spring more compressed on the neck?
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Post by SteveCraig on Jun 30, 2005 15:48:38 GMT -5
Very easy one to understand. Wrap a snare around your arm. Lean back and pull as you might. Time it to see how fast it takes your hand to go to sleep. Now, wrap a snare around your arm with a choke spring on it and simply pull it tight enough to let the spring "flip" over and set. Time it to see how fast your hand falls asleep. You will find that it takes about the same amount of time for your hand to go to sleep in both cases. Only difference is the force needed to compress the spring is much much less than the force needed (BY THE COYOTE) to exert the same amount of "sleep" pressure with out the spring. Will the coyote exert the needed force to kill himself with out the spring? Some do and some dont. Choke springs are for the ones that dont! Steve
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ADC
Seasoned Veteran
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Post by ADC on Jun 30, 2005 17:02:44 GMT -5
Steve I think your close to answering my question. Let me rephrase it...
If it takes "X" amount of force to compress the spring, and a coyote pulls the same "X" amount and no more on a snare without the spring, would it kill him? Assuming the cam-lock works correctly and does not slip.
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rack
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Post by rack on Jun 30, 2005 19:50:11 GMT -5
Most of your snares that have a camelock and kill spring, have teeth filed in them locks and do not slip, even with 1/16, 1+19, without teeth they will slip some as the cable is so smooth. The lunging the yotes do put them down and out fast. A freind using stinger kill springs during summer adc work said he spooked a coyote on a ridge top and it ran down thru an area and smacked one of his snares, he started lunging and he looked at his watch, said less than 5 minutes it collapsed and was down, he only wished he had is movie camera . I think the answer to your ? ADC would depend on the type of cable you are using? and if you have teeth filed in them locks. Rack
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Post by SteveCraig on Jun 30, 2005 21:19:36 GMT -5
ADC Too many variables. Lets say it takes 10#'s to set the spring, yet 10 #'s of force by the coyote would probably not be enough to kill it. But, Now lets say that it takes 50#'s to set the spring, I now believe that 50#'s of force on a coyote snare will kill it without a spring. All this is assuming a camlock, and a neck snared coyote. Again, too many variables. So you see, there is not a clear and definite answer to your question. Also, the size of your cable also comes into play as well. What you and i need to do is take out as many variables as we can from our coyote snaring situation. Easier said than done. Steve
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